Curse

Str0b0 · Jan 09, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jormund

Oh? I trust you're enjoying the elite missions in the Realm of Madness; if you recall correctly though, those weren't even finished when NF was released. Think about that, the elite missions intended for Nightfall were not done when the game was released because there wasn't enough time.

Sure, Nightfall did have a lot of content and game (some pretty cool stuff to) when the release date came up, but the fact that they weren't able to get *everything* they wanted done at release should be quite telling that they didn't have enough time.

That's not necessarily true. They may very well have had more than enough time provided everything had gone to plan. We have no idea what goes on in their development groups. For all we know the Elite content had to be left out in order to correct a serious issue before release. These things happen. How many times have you had a deadline and things just kept popping up that absolutely required your attention? All we can do is speculate on why the elite content wasn't there on release day. It's not a telling point, it tells us nothing. All it does is give us something to speculate on and nothing more.

Ninna · Jan 09, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

A 6 month release schedule is so bad that some of the ArenaNet devs have mentioned that it would be better if it wasn't this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

first give us the devs names and links to their statements

I bet hes thinking of Gaile commenting about rumors of Chapter4 being Mayan and released in August

here's what Gaile *actually* said
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0083395&page=3

Quote:

some of what he says would make me pretty happy as a player.

I dont know of any statements by ANET staff preferring otherwise to a 6 month schedule

but hes welcome to show us otherwise

Rustjive · Jan 09, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

I bet hes thinking of Gaile commenting about rumors of Chapter4 being Mayan and released in August

here's what Gaile *actually* said
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0083395&page=3

I dont know of any statements by ANET staff preferring otherwise to a 6 month schedule

but hes welcome to show us otherwise

This is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm not going to show you otherwise, because IRC chat is easily forged, not official, and anyways - the privacy of alpha testers and their forums and anet employees looking just to shoot the breeze is going to be respected. Just leave it at the fact that this 6 month release schedule is working some people to death.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jan 09, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I don't know... A-Net has enough wealth to avoid doing Micropayments and their business model (hasn't changed yet) is to provide a MMORPG (more like COORPG) free of charge for us to play. We won't know what A-Net has planned for us until we see Chapter 4.

Str0b0 · Jan 09, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

This is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm not going to show you otherwise, because IRC chat is easily forged, not official, and anyways - the privacy of alpha testers and their forums and anet employees looking just to shoot the breeze is going to be respected. Just leave it at the fact that this 6 month release schedule is working some people to death.

What fact?!? That's the problem with your entire thesis and argument. It has no supporting facts. It's all based on hearsay and the only "evidence" which you could provide you admit that it is easily forged. If this was a court of law or a moderated debate you would have already lost your case. If you cannot cite your sources then you should not bring up a point supported by those sources in a debate of any sort and you most certainly should not bandy the word fact around unless you can provide evidence that what you say is indeed a fact and not just hearsay. Once again I challenge you to provide evidence to back up your points otherwise your entire argument is moot.

DarthGreg · Jan 09, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grolubao

They don't force anyone to buy the unlock packs, it's up to you...

Clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about, let me spell it out for you: today we're paying for unlocks and extra character slots, maybe in six months we're paying for access to special 15k armor, and in a year? Skins and green weapons that nobody else can get, special guild halls, and what else? The sky is the limit, and it's only a few steps beyond these things that will have us paying cash for exclusive skills, extra player levels, and more powerful weapons. This is the business model for many successful Asian MMO's, don't doubt that ANet hasn't at least considered it.

The day that I have to pay extra money (above expansion purchases) just to be able to compete is the day I stop playing this game.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jan 09, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthGreg

Clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about, let me spell it out for you: today we're paying for unlocks and extra character slots, maybe in six months we're paying for access to special 15k armor, and in a year? Skins and green weapons that nobody else can get, special guild halls, and what else? The sky is the limit, and it's only a few steps beyond these things that will have us paying cash for exclusive skills, extra player levels, and more powerful weapons. This is the business model for many successful Asian MMO's, don't doubt that ANet hasn't at least considered it.

The day that I have to pay extra money (above expansion purchases) just to be able to compete is the day I stop playing this game.

I agree, if there is monthly charges or anything that force me to pay over the price of exisiting chapters. I'll stop playing this game and move on to something else.

explodemyheart · Jan 09, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

This is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm not going to show you otherwise, because IRC chat is easily forged, not official, and anyways - the privacy of alpha testers and their forums and anet employees looking just to shoot the breeze is going to be respected. Just leave it at the fact that this 6 month release schedule is working some people to death.

If this is your attitude, I'm inclined to say that you're just making things up.

The burden of proof is on you, my friend. I'd rather see a possibly forged screenshot than having someone say "Hey, just take my word for it." You've made a whole mess of statements stated at fact, and have provided absolutely nothing to back them up as more than opinion. Your word is not fact, unless you have proof to back it up. Possibly forged or otherwise.

SumXone · Jan 09, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

well, i see the point and the necessity of micropayments, but i will never ever buy anything from the gw store ever again since i got screwed over with the non-modable weapons from the fairly expensive weapon pack.

5 bucks for unuseable weapons has done it for me.

i bet anet keeps screwing players over with these micropayments!

Jormund · Jan 09, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

That's not necessarily true. They may very well have had more than enough time provided everything had gone to plan. We have no idea what goes on in their development groups. For all we know the Elite content had to be left out in order to correct a serious issue before release. These things happen. How many times have you had a deadline and things just kept popping up that absolutely required your attention? All we can do is speculate on why the elite content wasn't there on release day. It's not a telling point, it tells us nothing. All it does is give us something to speculate on and nothing more.

Then they should give themselves extra time. That's what most companies do that don't force themselves on a deadline they can't always meet. They delay release a month, sometimes less, sometimes more; that way when the game is released, it's all finished, and everything is working. Not mostly finished, please wait while we update/change/add things (although patching is common, usually they don't add a large series of missions and content that didn't quite make it in, they fix bugs that were not found).

Now admittedly, NF didn't release unplayably unpolished or anything like that, and the elite missions weren't in the center of the game and needed to be done right away. The point I'm trying to make is that you can tell the time isn't there to get all of it done, just most of it.

Ninna · Jan 09, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthGreg

it's only a few steps beyond these things that will have us paying cash for exclusive skills, extra player levels, and more powerful weapons. This is the business model for many successful Asian MMO's, don't doubt that ANet hasn't at least considered it.

The day that I have to pay extra money (above expansion purchases) just to be able to compete is the day I stop playing this game.

I doubt ANET has considered it

one of the primary features of the game is that competitive success is not primarily about gear -- your skill bar is more influential

regarding the future of online store, here's a Gaile statement
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0037244&page=5

Quote:

We'll always be very careful about what we offer. Options will be given that are reasonable and fair, that do not unbalance the game or cause concerns amongst players who do not choose to exercise the option.

We won't offer gold for sale, for instance, or "instant-levels" or other things such as that. I don't imagine you'll see "Uber Items of Deadliness" that cause all others to fall to uselessness. We care too much about balance and about the viability of our game in the short-term and in the long-term to take risks with sales that would unsettle things.

We'll be listening to your thoughts, by all means, and will certainly afford them careful consideration as we move forward with a careful and conservative plan for enlarging the Guild Wars Official Store in ways that are only positive.

TB_ · Jan 09, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

Edit 2: For those too lazy to read, an abstract: Guild Wars is dying! A restrictive business model is to blame. Micropayments are the way out - but there have been no developments on this front for quite a while. A little help for anet, maybe?

GW is dying not due to its business model but due to lack of support, for a PvP game when was the last time you saw a new PvP map outside of the RA? Or a new core game mode? or free skills to balance the game vs having to buy a new chapter to do it? never.... and thats why GW is dying.

Look at epic, they go out of there way to make sure their users get plenty of maps, mods, new vehicles, and balances well well well well after their games sold and passed any real obligation, and now they're considered the top studio there is. You support your product or itll die.

NF and Factiosn are great examples of ANs lack of support... NF in made up of a huge amount of reused content when for the price we payed we should have gotten original content. And as for factions... its dead.... no support, no new maps, populations down, faction system still broken, elite areas still locked and no sign of change.

Str0b0 · Jan 09, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jormund

Then they should give themselves extra time. That's what most companies do that don't force themselves on a deadline they can't always meet. They delay release a month, sometimes less, sometimes more; that way when the game is released, it's all finished, and everything is working. Not mostly finished, please wait while we update/change/add things (although patching is common, usually they don't add a large series of missions and content that didn't quite make it in, they fix bugs that were not found).

Now admittedly, NF didn't release unplayably unpolished or anything like that, and the elite missions weren't in the center of the game and needed to be done right away. The point I'm trying to make is that you can tell the time isn't there to get all of it done, just most of it.

Granted, and I'm sure they did try to provide for unforseen circumstances, however you can't plan for every unknown and what they may have thought was adequate time might not have been in the face of unknown problems. Once again this is all speculation as is the supposition that the elite content was left out for no other reason than lack of time. Only the development teams know for sure why the elite content was left out at release. I honestly don't think that they would maintain an unsustainable development cycle though. If they didn't think their teams could handle it they wouldn't have done it. Game makers have learned over the past few years that it is better to turn out a polished game late than to release a flop on schedule. Again though that is speculation on my part. For all I know they might have implemented the development schedule without regard for workloads or sufficient development time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB_

GW is dying not due to its business model but due to lack of support, for a PvP game when was the last time you saw a new PvP map outside of the RA? Or a new core game mode? or free skills to balance the game vs having to buy a new chapter to do it? never.... and thats why GW is dying.

Look at epic, they go out of there way to make sure their users get plenty of maps, mods, new vehicles, and balances well well well well after their games sold and passed any real obligation, and now they're considered the top studio there is. You support your product or itll die.

NF and Factiosn are great examples of ANs lack of support... NF in made up of a huge amount of reused content when for the price we payed we should have gotten original content. And as for factions... its dead.... no support, no new maps, populations down, faction system still broken, elite areas still locked and no sign of change.

And yet another unsupported statement about the decline of GuildWars. Maybe I just haven't been playing the correct game. Perhaps I somehow link into some super secret server somewhere, but I still play Factions along with lots of other people. I have long since passed into the faction controlled territories and lo and behold there are groups of people waiting to do the missions there and quests too. OMG! Factions is so dead! As for Nightfall the re-use of a few character models hardly constitutes a rip off, particularly not when it is tied into the storyline. So they took a few monster models big whoop. I know I don't feel ripped off and most of the other people I encounter feel the same way. We got our money's worth in Nightfall. Unless you can show me hard numbers in the form of Neilson polls or some other respected polling and data gathering institute documents that the GuildWars player base has dramatically decreased then you're just blowing smoke and nothing more. Prove your position. Show me numbers. Show me hard data.

Matias Shadowman · Jan 09, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco1983

Most MMORPG's are just typical 'kill, kill, kill, and kill some more untill i level to whatever, and i think that i am the 1337 because of my ultra high level and holy weapons' games. Guild Wars aint that! PvE aint, and PvP also isn't. It's about you, and your human, or computerised teammates. And as far as i am concerned, the PvE mode has more than enough content! Also, a lot of other MMO's have the usual monthly fee's, and you need to pay another €30/40/50 for the aditional expansion packs. Lastly, they do mostly NOT have such a fine development team that actually listens to most of the suggestions being made concidered gameplay improvements, and do NOT have such large FREE content updates like for example 'Sorrows Furnace'.

I agree with everything you say except "large free updates".Since Sorrows Furnace about a year ago i haven't seen other large updates like that.

Makkert · Jan 09, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

A doom post, but a rare one at it. Well argumented, and constructive ideas. The little touch of humor by pointing out Beo didn't hurt either.

I read it, and I agree with the points. They make a lot of sense. Altough I wouldn't express myself in such strong words. It is still an 'outsiders view'. You simply lack the real data to make a stern claim to say that ANet's business model is failing. But you do come up with good arguments, especially the staff. Hearing that Izzy is the single person that is in charge of gamebalance, and besides that has several other tasks to do is mindboggling.
It certainly wouldn't hurt to have someone helping out on that front, that also could furfill a 'gaile role' towards the pvp crowd.

*If* Anet's business model is so stringent that it can't adept itself to an ever increasing complexitiy of the game, then I agree with the OP that the business model is failing.
However, looking with an open mind, there are ways to change parameters without collapse of the business model. One of them the OP already pointed out: micro payments.
Another option I could see is raising the price of the expansions.

Or to summarize: The OP brings a lot of good points to the table, but the connection between points A and B and the conclusion that the business model is failing is questionable.

Rustjive · Jan 09, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

It's at this point, I say, never mind. 75 posts into the thread and people are getting hung up on the concept that Guild Wars is dying. It doesn't matter if you agree with that or not, it's not the point of the thread at all. The point is that micropayments seem to have fallen by the wayside, even though as a financial model it's much more successful that Guild Wars'. There are some forum warriors arguing tooth and nail over minor points that don't matter in the slightest, using concepts like "court of law". It's an internet forum, get over it. Reporters don't need to reveal their sources, I'm not looking to publicize the names of people when they're just chatting online. If you don't believe it, fine, just address the concepts directly. You can ignore 'Guild Wars is dying' and talk about micropayments directly - it's not as if micropayments should only exist if Guild Wars needs it to survive.

I swear to God, 90% of the people in this thread are talking about things that have nothing to do with anything: Monthly payments, financial failure, etc. This thread in a nutshell is why it's completely stupid to even post again - a utter lack of comprehension on the part of most posters, anal retentive nitpicking, a general failure to see the forest for the trees. Consider this thread dead.

Edit: <3 Makkert

Ninna · Jan 09, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

It's at this point, I say, never mind. 75 posts into the thread and people are getting hung up on the concept that Guild Wars is dying. It doesn't matter if you agree with that or not, it's not the point of the thread at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

For those too lazy to read, an abstract Guild Wars is dying! A restrictive business model is to blame. Micropayments are the way out

conflicting messages

want to get your point made?
leave the Chicken Little "Sky is Falling" out of your abstract

Str0b0 · Jan 09, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Rustjive the issue of whether GuildWars is dying or not is the important aspect of this thread. Your position is that it is dying and that MicroPayments are a means to finance solutions to keep this from happening. You offer no supporting evidence for this supposed decline. You offer no hard data to support your claims. So without this supporting evidence of a dying GuildWars your entire micropayment argument becomes moot. You offer a solution to a problem you cannot prove exists and therefore your solution itself becomes pointless.

arcanemacabre · Jan 09, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Rustjive the issue of whether GuildWars is dying or not is the important aspect of this thread. Your position is that it is dying and that MicroPayments are a means to finance solutions to keep this from happening. You offer no supporting evidence for this supposed decline. You offer no hard data to support your claims. So without this supporting evidence of a dying GuildWars your entire micropayment argument becomes moot. You offer a solution to a problem you cannot prove exists and therefore your solution itself becomes pointless.

Exactly.

I could easily say the moon is plotting the destruction of Earth, and that the only way to stop it would be to destroy it first. Then people would say "Where's your proof of the moon plotting to destroy Earth?", and I would reply "It doesn't matter. Point is, we need to destroy the moon to keep this from happening!"

See the problem?

lyra_song · Jan 09, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Lets just dump that he ever said that Guild Wars is dying

Micropayments do work.

How many people bought extra player slots?

------------------------------------------

Imo. It is naive to believe that Arenanet's implementation of purchasable player slots and PvP unlock packs is merely to please the gaming community.

Imo, it is to supplement and add to their business model of expansions per 1/2 year cycle.

Now.

Instead of bickering over wether GW is dying or not, lets go back to an issue Gaile herself posted about before?

What would you like to see in the GW store?

Thats what the OP is all about.